Do you know what the real definition of a lazy tenor is?
A very rich baritone!
–Thomas Hampson
Last Spring, I switched from baritone to tenor. Since I wrote about it, a lot of people have found this blog by asking the question via Google: Am I a tenor or a baritone?
The answer: it depends.
Fach Identity
There is a lot of identity that goes with singing within a certain fach (voice type). One person’s personality may be attracted to one kind of character over another, but their voice may point them in a different direction.
Baritones, alas, tend to play more villains (Scarpia, Jago, Jud Fry, Javert) or ‘dudes of questionable integrity’ (Count Almaviva, Oppenheimer) than tenors.
At best, tenors tend to be lovers (Nemorino, Fenton, Rinuccio, Rodolfo, Alfredo, Faust) and heroes (Siegfried, Jean Valjean), and, at their worst, they can be jerks (Pinkerton) or creeps (Hermann), but they are rarely murderers (Don José).
If you are a baritone who wants to play heroes all the time, your options may be limited in opera (both Figaros, Valentin) and more plentiful in musical theater (Curly, Lancelot, Marius).
In my situation, I was looking at a handful of baritone roles that I could credibly play. I was hoping that I could be the next Thomas Hampson and get some of the rarely performed baritone versions of popular tenor roles tenor roles transposed (Werther
Questions to Ask Yourself
None of these questions are fool-proof. Some baritones have high passaggi and some tenors have a hard time with high C’s, but these can get you thinking more clearly about who you are:
-
Are you uncomfortable or in pain?
If you feel sore when you sing, whether it’s high or low, then you may want to try something else. If A2 on the bass clef feels bad to you, then you may be a higher voice. But if E4 feels bad to you even after regular practice, then you may have a low voice.
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Where is your passaggio?
Where is the most unstable area of your voice? That’s your passaggio. Usually, it is a good guide to help you decide whether you are a high or low voiced person. While I was singing baritone, I could never sing G’s very loudly and was worried about that. Well, I couldn’t sing them loudly because they are within my passaggio.
Normally, we speak of having two passaggio breaks: the first break (primo passaggio) and the second break (secondo passaggio) with a zone in between (zona di passaggio).
For me, the zona di passaggio feels similar to singing on a tight rope where one wrong move will cause me voice to flip in and out of falsetto in a fluttery kind of way. It is also difficult to hear my own voice properly there.
Here is the chart from Richard Miler’s The Structure of Singing
laying out men’s passaggio points (with those in parentheses being alternates):
Voice Type primo passaggio secondo passaggio tenorino F4 Bb4 tenore leggiero E4 (Eb4) A4 (Ab4) tenore lirico D4 G4 tenore spinto D4 (C#4) G (F#4) tenore robusto (tenore drammatico) C4 (C#4) F4 (F#4) baritono lirico B3 E4 baritono drammatico Bb3 Eb4 basso cantante A3 D4 basso profondo Ab3 (G3) Db4 (C4) Test out your voice by singing a truly pure “Ah” vowel beginning in your speaking voice area. As you ascend, you will reach a point where you have to tilt your jaw up if you continue to sing in the exact same manner as you began. That’s your primo passaggio. A fourth above is your secondo passaggio. This doesn’t work in 100% of cases, but it usually is helpful.
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What are the extremes of your range?
I knew that I could sing C5 about 5 years ago when I listened to some tenors and concluded, “I can do that”. I would sing it, but for years I didn’t trust those high notes.
Trust yours. If you have extremes on either side of your voice like extreme low notes or extreme high notes, then admit that they might be telling you something. They may not be developed and strong. But a tenor will not be able to sing B1. If you can, then perhaps you should avoid singing tenor rep. Baritones can’t sing Eb5 outside of falsetto. If you can…
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What is your reaction to other singers?
If you listen to a singer and think “Yes, we can!”, then give it a shot and see. Try what they do. Don’t get attached because it might be wrong for you right now, but there’s nothing wrong in trying something out once. Your gut may be telling you something.
If you feel inadequate after listening to a singer or a sense that it is totally beyond you, then maybe that repertoire is not right for you.
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Are you faking it?
You may not feel any discomfort or pain when you sing, but you may be faking it. Examples of baritone “fakery” include a tongue shoved into your throat or an overly lengthened vocal tract by shoving your lips outward. You may be pulling your top lip down to darken your sound. You may be modifying your vowels too early to create an artificially low passaggio. You may sound incredibly loud to your own ears but small voiced to everyone else.
Fake tenors may have a larynx that is pulled up into the backs of their throats. Or they may be shouting their high notes just to force them out. To give the appearance of a high passaggio, they may keep their voices spread instead of modifying their vowels appropriately. This sound may not sound like singing at all and may be highly unpleasant to listen to (though even the prettiest voice can sound unpleasant if it’s loud and in a small room).
Try singing as simply as you can for awhile and forget all of your technique. Just intone some “Ah”s and try to avoid creating any tension in your throat. Record yourself. What do you hear?
Do I have a choice?
For most people, the answer is ‘no’. For most people, they are clearly in one camp or the other, and there is very little they can do to alter that. The question becomes “What kind of (bass,baritone,tenor,alto,mezzo,soprano) am I?” That takes time to learn as well.
But for some others, they may have a choice. Lauritz Melchior sang as professional baritone before he switched up, and he must have been credible to audiences at the time. Thomas Hampson could probably have made a credible tenor, but he’s done ok for himself.
The choice to remain or change is a highly personal one. If you are toying with the idea then talk to your teacher (and maybe several; I got a second opinion with my teacher’s blessing) and take some time to play with it. There’s no harm in play.
[Have you made a change in your fach? What was the experience like? Was it easy, hard, in between?]
{“Si se puede” frog by artfulblogger.}
I am not really a singer but I find it fascinating. While trying to figure out if I was a Baritone or Tenor, I found this site. Based on the info from the chart it seems as if I am a dramatic tenor or either a high baritone. I can sing a C4 without straining or going over into head voice. The highest note I can get to is F4(maybe F#4) and then somewhere along here is when the “flip” happens.
The baritone version of Werther is by Massenet himself, written in 1902. But still your point stands, there aren't that many lyric baritone superstars like Hampson.
For not being a singer, you have a pretty good idea about how your voice works! I'm glad the chart was useful for you.
I've found that passaggi points can also be different on different days depending on our health. So it very well may move back and forth between F and F#.
@olru Corrected. Thank you for pointing that out.
Wow this is great! I love this! according to this I’m either a tenorino or a leggiero. I think I’ll have to wait until my voice heals from pharyngitis for me to know for sure though.
I’m glad you found it helpful! I hope your throat feels better soon.
Hehe. I’m almost 19 though. Do you think my voice will darken at least a semi-tone more or stay pretty much the same?
It might, but you never know for sure. Since I haven’t heard you, I won’t make a prediction beyond saying that in your 20′s and early 30′s, you’ll learn a lot about your voice and what is right for it. It might change dramatically or very little.
For an example of a dramatic change, my most recent voice teacher began as a light lyric tenor who sang Donizetti and Rossini and was hoping to sing a lot of Britten roles. Then in his 30′s, he had a major change and he began singing heavier roles until he was singing the heaviest Wagner Heldentenor roles in Germany.
On the other hand, Alfredo Kraus was always skeptical of singers whose voices dramatically changed over time. He sang the same repertoire from his early 20′s until the day he passed at age 70.
You never know. Just pay attention to what feels right for your voice.
I´m 23 y’o male and i always felt that i had an almost “alto” kind of voice (a very childish and very bright tone, by the way, and i still have it). I tested my voice with this site and the note when i change registers (the first one that sounds cracked, or when a crack happens) is F4. Am i doing this right?. The one that i must take in consideration is the last one of chest (E#4) of the first one of passaggio (F4)?. Does this makes me a high tenor?
@….. Not being able to hear you, it would be unwise for me to label you one of any type. I really suggest that you find a good voice teacher in your area and seek some outside guidance. However, to continue exploring your voice on your own you can:
1. Look at your Adam’s apple and compare it to other singers’. It sounds simplistic, but men with long Adam’s apples tend to be lower voiced because it (the tip of the thyroid cartilage) can give you an idea of how long your vocal folds are. Just like a piano, longer thicker folds mean lower tones while shorter thinner folds mean higher tones. It’s not the whole story, but it can tell you something.
2. Feel your larynx while you sing. If it yanks upwards toward the back of your mouth, then that can create a childish tone. But if it’s low and stable and you still find your voice to be high, then that may tell you that you are a higher voiced man.
3. Compare where you speak with someone who has a clear high or low voice. Basses and baritones tend to speak at a lower general pitch range than their tenor counterparts. Find one of those guys and compare. It would be even better to find a piano and know exactly what pitch you tend to average while you speak. Then you can see how much higher you are.
4. Play with passaggio strategies. Usually, to sing [a] up and down their voices, men need to modify their lip shapes to “aw” (at the beginning of the passaggio) then “oh” then “oo” (this is right at the top) then begin to open again to “uoh” (like “book”) then “uh”. Really exaggerate your lip shapes and find what vowel shapes work best at certain pitches. By changing the shape of your mouth, some notes will become a lot easier. Find those shapes and notes and that will tell you a lot about your voice.
5. Monitor yourself. If you have a camera or a mirror watch yourself like crazy. See what strategies you use to sing higher notes. Then go to Youtube and watch other singers and compare. You can learn a lot about yourself this way.
Hope this helps. Sorry for the slow response, I’ve been on a long road trip.
Thanks for your response. Answering items:
1.-Adam’s apple: Small but it’s there.
2.-Larynx: It seems to disappear completely after F4 and up.
3.-Piano: The lowest note c3, the highest round E5 +/- F5.
2.-Larynx: It seems to disappear completely after F4 and up.
Explaining point 2: At F4 my adam’s apple goes up (seems to disappear). Lower than that seems fine.
@… All of your responses suggest that you’re a tenor and most likely a high one. However, I still suggest that you find a teacher to work with you. Your description of your larynx disappearing suggests that you have some technical challenges to overcome. One’s larynx ought to remain stable – and somewhat low – throughout his voice, and that takes time to work out.
Thanks.
I’ll keep it
in mind
[...] most popular post – by far – is “Tenor or a Baritone: Five Questions to Help You Decide”. It seems like this is a big issue for singers, and – understandably – singers are confused [...]
Hello Mr Ian. You’ve got an interesting article. Thanks for sharing!
Well actually I need someone to clarify my vocal timbre. I could go down Db2 up to D5 most of the time. On random days after vocal warm up it’s just weird that I could reach high F5 with mix chest.
But to be honest, my most comfortable range falls within A2 to A4. Sometimes, Bb4. (I can’t sing B4 coz it sounds shaky and hard to control)
Questions:
Is Db2 considered normal for a tenor to sing?
I don’t find it easy to go on singing with falsetto. Why?
I heard that tenors could go beyond C6 but for myself I’m stuck with headvoice, around Ab5 – B5. Is this really the maximum I could go?
On bad days, I prefer to sing F4 because that I didn’t want to force my voice out. Do you find it reasonable?
Here’s a link of me singing in legato.(not a good one though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oODu7lIYZr0
Thanks in advance! =)
Hi Zamel,
Thanks for contacting me!
Your recording sounds like a tenor and most likely a lyric or lighter tenor. Heldentenor is a very specific voice type that is extremely rare, and your voice – at least from that recording – certainly does not sound like a Heldentenor.
Db2 is very low, but I wonder what you sound like when you make that note. Is it loud? Are you using vocal fry?
Video of Vocal Fry
Vocal fry is not considered a healthy technique, and it shouldn’t be used to gauge your range. And sometimes we can make a healthy tone without vocal fry on a very low note, but I bet that it’s not a usable note in your case just because your voice sounds naturally high.
As for your high range: C6 is soprano range. Most men never have to sing that high. Freddie Mercury of Queen might have at some point, but usually only male sopranos (counter tenors) sing that high in classical repertoire. Even then it’s rare. Unless you want to sing soprano repertoire, then it’s not worth worrying about singing those notes.
Falsetto takes some time to train. If you aren’t using your falsetto well, then it can tire you out just as quickly as using your normal voice. Breath support and an open throat apply to singing in falsetto just as they do for the rest of our singing. It took me years to learn how to produce healthy falsetto tones, so be sure to take your time with it.
If you can find a voice teacher in your location that you can trust, then that is your best bet to learn about your voice. You sound like a tenor, but a teacher can really help you maximize your capabilities.
Thank you Mr Ian Sidden for your reply. Well at least by now I already know my limit. There was once where my voice got strained cause of singing lower notes. Hmmm..Yup! I guess I need to find a good voice teacher along the way. Thanks once again.
Hi Mr Sidden.
My range starts at b2
(frying it i can reach a2).
I can sing b3 very well
but c4 is a little bit
problematic, another change
goes at f4 and at b4 there’s
another change where my voice
adquires a very sharp tone
that goes till d5.
So… Hendel, Drammatico?
A few years ago i couldn’t even
reach a c3
(my lowest were a d#3).
Hi Singer,
Your high range suggests tenor. Some baritones don’t have a great a2 either, but they normally don’t go as high as you do. You don’t say how comfortable those high notes are for you, so I’m assuming they’re not uncomfortable.
Are there any recordings available of you online? If you’re not comfortable being too public, then you can do a quick recording, upload it to Youtube and then set it to “Unlisted”. That will mean that you can share a link for some people to hear it, but no one will be able to search for it and stumble upon it from the Youtube site. I’m very curious what the “sharp tone” is that enters your voice and how you move through your registers.
I can’t tell if somebody has a dramatic voice without hearing them. Singing dramatic music without a dramatic voice can be very damaging. Regardless of passaggio, a dramatic singer must be able to cut through the thickest of orchestrations for extended periods. I don’t know how old you are, but people usually do not sing fully dramatic music until they are in the mid to late 30′s. It’s a grownup voice type.
This is not to discourage you if you are a dramatic singer, of course.
Some dramatic tenors are Mario del Monaco, Franco Corelli, Lauritz Melchior, and Kurt Baum. Listening to them can give you some context in case you hadn’t listened to them before.
Hi. Can you give me your email?.
I think i can send ‘u something
since i’m a total amateur
at singing.
Can you help me decide where I fit?
I talk with some vocal fry in my voice at about B2 (the fact there is vocal fry in my voice when I talk must mean I talk lower than I should). If there wasn’t vocal fry in that part of my voice I’d say definate baritone.
My singing range extremes are: G2 (really the lowest I can possibly go by forcing my larynx down as if imitating a bass) and about D5 in what I think is head voice. My falsetto can take me to G5 but I only know how to get into falsetto with excess strain that I don’t use on the rest of my voice.
I can take chest voice to Eb4 although I’m not sure if I’m almost shouting it or not.
On a hum or singing “ah” if I just let a chest voice sound out it seems to always be Eb3.
After listening to Zamel’s recording of him singing I sound deeper in comparison.
I believe everything points to me being a lyric baritone so far but after listening to other lyric baritones sing, my voice seems somehow different. I guess the difference is if I sing the same note my voice sounds higher and sometimes has edge to it.
I don’t exactly struggle singing along to my favourite contemporary music singers, like Nevershoutnever but he does sing in such a way that I can sing it at a slightly lower volume and hit every note he does. One thing I might be doing is using mix voice to hit the notes he hits in high chest voice though.
I think I’m a lyric baritone which sort of disappoints me seeing as modern contemporary music is full of tenors. If I am a lyric baritone is there anyway of taking it even a step up to dramatic tenor?
As a lyric baritone belting out Eb4 in full chest voice is it possible for me to belt out mix voice to A4?
Hey.
I was wondering if there was anyway you could help me to decide which of these types of singers I fit into.
I’m only 18 at the moment and 19 in january so they don’t really apply BUT I would love to know where I stand at the moment.
I don’t really sing opera but on speech level (just incase that changes where passagio points are).
My absoloute lowest note is G2 if I force my larynx down trying to sound like a bass (it clearly isnt bass though in any sense of the word). My highest note to date without strain is G5 (maybe could of gone to A5 or higher.
Depending on how loud I am singing my passagio points change.
When singing at a comfortable volume (which may be quite quiet in comparison to other singers) I can comfortably sing from C3 to about E4 where I either have my first passagio or my second. I’m not sure which because if it’s my second passagio then I have completely smoothed over my first one and have no idea where it is. The thing is upon using a 5 tone tenor scale to find my passagio points I have only found one passagio and it has been E4 and recently it seemed to be about G4 too (creating the same sort of quality) however when I switched at G4 I was easily able to hit a G5 and only stopped due to it being late and not wanting to wake my young sister up. When switching to head voice or mix (whichever it is) at E4 my voice reached D5 at most and only then at higher intensities than the rest of my range.
I’m pretty sure I hit the G5 without falsetto because I could feel my cords stretched further than I’ve felt before but without strain AND it had very much a ringing quality to it. I doubt I’d ever use it to sing contemporary music like I want to but knowing its there is really nice.
My natural speaking pitch however is B2 which actually weirdly includes some vocal fry in it without me trying. This might be due to me wanting a deeper voice before puberty and faking it until it became easy to talk down there and natural too. Do baritones usually have vocal fry in their average speaking voice?
It’s worth noting that talking at E3 when I actually think about the pitch of my voice is easy. Does this mean I should be talking around that note really but have developed talking low until it became my natural voice?
Do you think maybe that the reason My passagio changes is due to how much weight I have in my voice at the certain time?
I do keep alot of weight in my voice trying to keep it sounding even in quality (and also singing with more volume) which will make it harder and harder to go higher and eventually at about B3/C4 I just cant go higher and any notes after that are lighter so much more free (yet after today I realise they still kept a slight amount of tension).
I watched Zamel’s video to see what a lyric tenor sounded like and I was amazed at how high is voice is even on the low notes of his range. It sounded like he had some level of head voice in the whole of his range which was purely beautiful and smooth to listen to.
It was only after watching his video that I began to question my own voice type so much.
It was also after listening to him sing that I somehow miraculously expanded my top note from D5 to G5.
Would a baritone be able to hit G5 with ringing in his voice if he thinned it out enough?
If so then that may be what I did and I may be a lyric baritone.
What do you think?
If need be I could record a rough version of me vocalising my range and link it but would rather not at this stage in my development XD
Can I ask what is the last note Zamel hits? (the low one)
When I’m singing it with him he starts on Eb4 goes to C#5 and down to C#4. If I’m correct that is.
That would explain why it seemed so high even on his low notes XD.
in that case what he sings is easy and infact if C#5 is his highest note I have no problem going higher to F5 and G5 with ease.
Infact its easier for me to hit Eb5 than C5 or C#5 because I can take my mix voice to D5 at higher intensity and thus sometimes accidentally use that instead of head voice.
Head voice is so new to me and I can guarantee I have never used it before today. I was either using a high mix or some weak breathy sound to reach C5 and D5 (not strained though).
So I guess my last post is irrelevant now as we’ve found my first passagio is E4 and my second is about A4 according to your table above (although at this stage in my use of head voice the lowest I’ve taken it is B4 so far so I might be a little higher than you said).
This being said my head voice feels stronger and easier to navigate than my mix or chest voice already and I’ve been using mix voice for a couple of months or so but only using proper chest voice since today.(Always used too much weight in my voice and thought I was baritone which made me mentally feel I had to change to mix at B3 thus making it extremely hard to blend voices properly).
Also since discovering real head voice I can now reach Eb6 in what might be the early stages of whistle voice coming in. (Maybe just the extreme high note of head – I don’t know)
I am so thankful to this site and Zamel for finally discovering my true vocal fach and proper head voice. Thank you both so much.
Now I just need to work on my real voice to make it as strong as it can be XD
Once again thank you SO much.
Aidan,
There’s a lot of really interesting information here.
It sounds like you have a light lyric baritone voice. Many baritones don’t have extended low ranges like basses do. But many tenors can’t vocalise where you do at all.
There’s nothing wrong with being a baritone. There’s great music out there for you to sing if you find it. A lot of contemporary singers sing very high, but that will give you the chance to be different. Different is good. Emphasize your strengths.
I wouldn’t advise trying to push to dramatic tenor. That’s a whole new ballgame and it’s dangerous, especially for someone your age.
G5 is very high for a man to sing. Do you mean G4? The numbers are based on the C below it. So C4 is “middle C” on the piano. The G above that is G4. G4 is considered a baritone high note. G5 is soprano and mezzo soprano range, and men almost never need to sing it unless they are professional male sopranos or mezzos or some hair band singers. If you do sing it, then I’m certain that it’s in falsetto. I’ll be curious what this extended range sounds like in a few years as your voice matures more. One never knows.
It’s hard to discuss an individual’s passaggio without hearing you in person. I believe that the sensation of passaggio can change based on the amount of vocal weight in the voice. Therefore, what’s more important is to figure out where you feel most comfortable singing and how much weight is just right for your particular voice so that you can be heard but not exhaust yourself.
Your description of having vocal fry in your speaking voice is troubling. I hear a lot of people speak with vocal fry (from all voice types including women), but it usually sounds timid and reserved and comes from a lack of breath support and speaking too low. I would work to eliminate that by speaking a little higher and louder (when appropriate, of course) and taking a larger breath before you speak. You’ll immediately sound more confident, healthy and alert.
Finding a teacher would be very good for you if there are any in your area. They can answer many of these questions very quickly because they’ll be able to hear you and ask you questions in real time. It’s worth it if you’re interested in improving.
Thanks for writing, and best of luck.
Sorry for only just replying, I wanted to test out what you said before I rejected or accepted it. Thank you for your advice, it has probably saved me from vocal damage. I think in actual fact I am definately not a leggiero tenor at all and only thought I was because I had learnt accidentally how to adduct my cords effectively in falsetto to give it a full voiced sound. I was also being too quiet which allowed me to connect the reinforced falsetto to the rest of my voice (leading me to believe it was part of my range).
After reading your reply I tried out the tests in this blog again starting from scratch and just letting my voice go where it wants.
I found out I was using the wrong “ah” vowel to test my chest voice and upon correcting it I tried again. The result veried depending on how loud I let myself be but the top note I could reproduce time and time again without shouting was C4/C4# so I concluded that was my real first passagio (I’ve never really understood if your passagio point is the last note you CAN hit or the first note you CAN’T hit). Ofcourse I didn’t count any notes which had strain on them at all. The lowest note comfortable was C3 while using the “ah” vowel and this leads me to believe I am not producing the G2 to B2 in a correct or healthy way.
The D4, Eb4 and E4 notes cause me trouble all the time. I just cant fathom how to make a noise on this area which isn’t breathy, weak and broken. That should mean its within my passagio I believe.
If I start in head voice and work my way down I can make a noise on the notes D4, Eb4 and E4 and it feels as if it vibrates in both my head and chest so I guess thats mix voice but its certainly not strong. It still sounds weak and uncontrolled and too breathy and quiet.
My head voice starts at F4 (I believe) and I have no problem taking it to C5 and have actually attempted to go a little higher to E5. It became breathy aha. C5 is definately in my range though and sounds full and confident.
I think I will start working on my head voice properly again so I can develop it as much as I have chest voice.
I have begun speaking comfortably higher and louder and so far I speak generally around C#3 but within the next few months I might find it easier to speak a little higher.
You were right about sounding instantly more confident, healthy and alert. Even to myself I sound more enthusiatic about things.
“Do you know what the real definition of a lazy tenor is?
A very rich baritone!”
This is what I believe was my case. I believe the vocal fry in my speaking voice was the result of my voice becoming lazy.
I am glad you took the time to reply to me and also that you were critical but supportive. Thanks for everything and good luck with everything in life =)
Thanks, Aidan. I’m glad you found my suggestions helpful.
High I’m having trouble deciding if I am a lyric baritone or just maybe a spinto tenor my range is G2-b4 but I don’t sing any notes under A3 notes under there take a whole lot of breath. I sing all the time from A3-F4 tessitura here is a sample of my voice the video is how I sing comfortable the audio is low for me link:http://www.myspace.com/thatexclusivegemini/videos/video/63244787
:page link with audio cover:http://www.myspace.com/lillblessed thank you for your help
Hi Jason! thanks for sharing the recordings.
It’s hard to tell from your recording. You could go either way. You have a nice warm timbre, but I can see that you could go higher.
If I were your teacher, I would probably start you as a light baritone and go from there. With more training your voice would reveal itself over time.
But I would caution you to stay away from really heavy low stuff. Sometimes people hear “baritone” but think “bass” and try to use that person in a choir to sing really low things. That’s definitely not right for you if you’re ever in choral situations.
Thanks but, also here are two videos where I would say I sing comfortable because I was maybe thinking spinto and these videos kind of suggest that just want another opion so I won’t ruin my voice
http://www.myspace.com/video/thatexclusivegemini/i-39-m-gone/62976436
http://www.myspace.com/video/thatexclusivegemini/lil-blessed-of-clearvoice-singing-firsttime-by-cory/63244787
Why are you afraid of ruining your voice? Is it something you’re doing with your singing technique or is there a situation coming up where you’ll need to declare your voice type?
I really want to understand your concern.
someone told me if you continously sing in a fach that is to high and your a lower voice type you might ruin your voice thats why I was so concerned but I dont feel comfortable singing baritone roles I like to sing continously around Ae with alot of f4′s in the mix
Do you sing classical music or musical theater at all? Or do you want to apply this to the music you’re singing in the videos that you sent?
More to the music I was singing in the videos I sent,but I was interested in some musical theater as well.
Spinto is a voice type that describes a type of opera singer. Guys who sing spinto tenor are crazy loud but can also sing very high. As an example, here’s Franco Corelli:
Franco Corelli
In musical theatre, they might find themselves in the baritenor category where they don’t fall into either camp. Musical theater rarely asks men to sing in the operatic style so it’s harder to tell whether those folks are true spintos or lyric baritones.
With you, it’s equally difficult to tell. You have some technique work to do so that you don’t “pull up” your voice. You’re pulling up your voice where a lower voiced tenor might pull up his voice. Your timbre also reminds me of a tenor. It’s very possible that you’re a tenor. You might just as easily be a baritone who’s cutting of the warmth of his voice though. It’s very hard to tell over the internet without working with you in person.
If you advertise yourself as a tenor, then people will expect things of your voice that you are not currently capable of (based purely on the videos you sent). You will need to learn how to move into your higher voice much more easily. Check out Roderick Dickson for an excellent example.
If I were you, I’d work on the middle of my voice because I do think you could find an easier way to move up. It would be a very good idea to find a voice teacher. That person can work with you to answer any questions in real time. Though it will cost up front, it will save you so much time.
I have been taking voice lessons for a year now. I have problems with all notes under Eb4. From Eb4 all the way up to Bb5 I am in my happy zone. I dont have to strain at all and I am able to sing in a legitimate head voice with cord closure. If I try to sing past a Eb4 I feel like I am in inhaling my voice. As I go higher the sounds becomes lighter and brighter. I have a lift at B5/C6 where I go into the Whistle register I can go to a D7 comfortably. I have a very low Baritonal Quality chest voice but it reaches Eb4 down to a comfortable A2/B2. Normally I bottom at C3. Can you tell me what my voice is based on that.
I am asking beacuse my Voice teacher who is an Operatic Spinto Soprano claims that I have a break at G#4/A4ish. I am incredibly confused on what type voice I have. I play with the timbre alot and like to darken my voice alot to sing like a Spinto Tenor. I am leaning towards a Leggiero Tenor after reading Alan Lindquest’s article on Voiceteacher. com. To give you an idea of how light my voice is, I can sing in the Eb4-Bb5 range in the moring right when I wake up and still have a good quality of sound to it. My teacher believes that I am a Lyric Baritone because of my thin physique with a swimmer’s body type. I am not training to be a singer I am just curious.
Hi Ben,
I would really need to hear you. I would be very curious what your timbre sounds like when you sing as high as you say you can.
Are you sure that you mean B5 and D7? Remember that the new number begins at C and not at A (which is – admittedly – counterintuitive). D7 is the D above the D (D6) above high C (C6) for sopranos. I don’t think women can sing that high let alone men. Though you might prove me wrong.
Please let me know. I’ll be happy to discuss this more with you with a little more info.
Yes I do mean a B5 as in Soprano B5. I have have several points at which my voice shifts up (at least thats what I think)They are first one occuring at C#5 second at G5 and last at D6. The Timbre of my voice is incredibly light I can sing a Bb5 any day. The only problem is I sing from my throat when I sing from my diaphragm I have no breaks. Like I said at below Eb4 my voice feels weak and tired. Timbre sounds like a bell when I reach G5 and yes I mean Soprano G5. When I belt from C#5-F#5 it sounds very whiny but incredibly powerful and it does not take any effort to give you an idea of my voice.
I dont why but I talk pretty high too around Bb3/C4. I don’t know what any of this stuff means. But I am very curious.
When I said that I can sing a D7 I mean I can hit it not sit on it for hours I can sing it some days when my voice is fully warmed up but I cant sing it with power and yes I do mean the D7 above Soprano High C (C6). When I say Whoo after watching a football game I usually hit a C6/C#6 sometimes D6/Eb6/E6/F6.I can sing quietly and find it uncomfortable to be loud in any register except the (C#5-F#5/G5ish region).
Hi Ben,
It sounds like you have an impressive falsetto extension, and in that case you might seriously consider looking at counter tenor repertoire. You might listen to a singer like Philipe Jaroussky to see if you have any affinity for music like that.
Usually counter tenors sing in choral groups (like Chanticleer) as male sopranos and mezzo sopranos and in solo music of the Baroque (Handel, Vivaldi and such). It might sound strange at first, but this is a totally legitimate style and can be extremely beautiful. Good counter tenors are rare.
I would still be interested in hearing your voice. And of course, to be safe you should seek out and consult a teacher that you can trust.
I do not use falsetto, I use the legitimate head voice like a woman would and it sounds like a Soprano rather than a countertenor. It is not breathy and my voice teacher says it has cord closure.Falsetto is not a voice it is a tone of sound produced.I sing in the modal voice in the upper registers. I do not sound like a countertenor me and my voice teacher have recorded my voice before and she even said it sounded like a legitimate Soprano. What is the falsetto you are referring to because I do not use it.
Hi Ben,
I really don’t want to get too much into register talk because people have a lot of disagreements about it.
That said, it does sound like you have some confusion about what falsetto is. Falsetto is a register that is produced by the cricothyroid muscles completely taking over from the vocalis muscles and stretching the folds to the point where only the outer edge of the fold enters into oscillation. This produces a weaker spectrum of harmonics than modal voice and sounds similar to a woman’s head voice. Falsetto has full closure just like modal and needn’t sound weak or breathy. It is a legitimate register but is often avoided by male singers for various reasons.
Countertenors can sound like women altos and sopranos using falsetto. Their voices can be very powerful, and when listening blind it can be easy to confuse a good countertenor with a woman.
I would be very surprised if you weren’t using falsetto, but I suppose that anything is possible. Of course, not having worked with you or heard you, I can’t say anything with absolute certainty.
Brett Manning from Singing Success Clearly states that both men and women possess the legitimate head voice where there is cord closure and the vocal muscles are moving correctly. Check him out at Youtube Brett Manning Head Voice vs. Falsetto. He explains that falsetto is the false cord closure and is harmful to the voice. He also says that head voice can be come quiet and soft without whipsering and falsetto struggles with reaching high notes past C#5-F#5 some even sooner. He even sings a High C (C6) when working with a student. I do not mean to argue but this where I have learned the correct head voice rather than the strengthened falsetto. Also I am not training for Opera.
What follows is a lot more information than you asked for, but I felt compelled after watching some of his videos.
Falsetto is neither inherently unhealthy nor breathy. Most people just do not spend any energy developing their falsetto. Yes, it will be breathy if you bring it too low, but that’s because you’ve created a register violation by using an inappropriate register strategy. It will also be breathy if you’re just bad at it.
And that seems to be his definition. In one video I watched, he calls a breathy production falsetto and a clear production head voice. Both are falsetto. He tunes his vowels to have less hootiness to the sound, but it’s falsetto nevertheless. At other times, he is doing what some teachers would call head voice (keeping some thyroarytenoid muscle contraction while the cricothyroid muscle is dominant and creating a resonance space that has little sub-glottal resonance), but it’s inconsistent, and it seems that’s what he’s calling “mixed”.
I watched some of his videos where he demonstrates his range. Yes, he creates sounds at certain pitches that seem impressive. However, he is using falsetto (with some vocal fold dampening to reduce their length most likely – which you might call whistle) at the top and vocal fry at the bottom.
If you want to actually make music, then that’s completely irrelevant. What piece calls for notes that are at the far right of the piano? What piece calls for vocal fry?
By the way, he’s also mostly incorrect in his statements on vocal fry. He says that we just hear the individual collisions of the folds because they’ve slowed down so much. He’s partially correct on that (it’s hard to hear pitch below a certain point), but there’s more to it. Vocal fry is a non-periodic sound that is caused by the folds colliding at inconsistent intervals. The resulting sound – if it really is total vocal fry – has no pitch because pitch requires a periodic vibration (that is, they open and close at a steady rate over time). If you listen to his vocal fry examples, you’ll see that they have no pitch and he changes the sound by adjusting his vowel tuning. All that does is change the timbre, but because fry has no discernible pitch to begin with then no pitch change can occur.
This is test-able with spectrum analysis equipment. Regular voice has clear harmonics emanating from a fundamental frequency. Vocal fry looks like noise.
The thing is, Brett Manning and his teachers appear to have credibility for a few reasons. They actually have very nice voices. And in some of his lessons he gives some decent advice, especially for real pop singers. They throw around vague but impressive sounding terms like “pharyngeal” and “resonance”. And the videos have really nice production values.
But they have gaps in their understanding that can cause confusion.
If you are interested in learning reliable information (based off of peer reviewed science), then please read books by Johan Sundberg, Ingo Titze, Donald Miller, Berton Coffin, and Richard Miller. Yes, they all focus on opera singers, but our voices operate the same regardless of genre. These books won’t teach you how to sing, but they will present you with facts about how the voice works.
As for your situation, Ben, you might find that if you take some time off from the very high singing and practice solely in a more regular male tessitura that your lower range gets easier. It is possible that you are training your folds to behave in a certain way by singing so high, which can make it more difficult to adjust to a lower range. You probably won’t be a bass or baritone, but you should be able to phonate easily in a standard tenor range. Best of luck.
Hello Ian,
I am also trying to find out what my vocal range is. I believe I am a baritone, but I have the ability to sing up to Ab4, and I think I can sort of eek out a C5 in head voice. I also can move into F5, and maybe a F#5 (maybe G5, haven’t tested it) in falsetto. I also can sing down to a E2. I’m new to all of this vocal notation, and such, but I can provide you with a bit of singing if need be. I also don’t understand the passagio breaks. Any help would be appreciated
Hi Matt,
I think your intuition is correct. Ab4 is commonly sung by baritones. Tonio’s aria from Pagliacci is an example, John’s aria from Little Women is another. High A’s are commonly sung in “Largo al factotum” from Il barbiere di Sviglia.
Baritones just tend to not hang as high – relatively speaking – in their voices as tenors do, so there’s less emphasis placed on that difficult high voice negotiation. Baritones are more valued for the warmth and beauty of their tone in their middle voice whilst tenors tend to abandon a certain amount of color in their middle and lower voices to excel in the highest ranges.
Passaggio is a difficult thing to understand because there just isn’t much useful information out there beyond personal testimony. There seems to be two things happening: a change of vibration style at the vocal folds and a change of resonance strategies to tune different harmonics at different pitches. If that previous sentence meant nothing to you, then that’s fine. I’ve been struggling with a way to explain it that doesn’t melt into such a technical sounding mess.
Here’s a try: the feeling of the upper extension (or head voice) feels like it’s still got the power of chest voice but it has less weight underneath it. This takes time to discover. It should never feel like shouting, and it shouldn’t feel much more strenuous than your lower voice. That’s not to say that it doesn’t take any effort at all or energy. Often it feels like tight-rope walking that’s regulated by your vowel choices and your breath support.
The moment you switch from one feeling to the other is the passaggio. Over time, you’ll find where that is for your voice, and it will be half your choice and half predetermined by your vocal structure.
I have to run and teach a lesson. If you have any other questions, then let me know!
Hi ben and ian.
If u wanna hear a REAL MALE
SOPRANO singing pop, you
must search for
“rudy la Scala” at youtube.
He is a venezuelan singer
and composer and his speaking
voice is far away from common.
He is NOT a falsettist.
You are advised! HEHE!
And please, when you hear
him, post here what you
think about his voice.
Man, his vocals (and the rarity of his tone)
at his song “cree”
(I think its at youtube too) are stunning!.
And i’m saying again
MALE SOPRANO (pop) singing modal, not falsetto.
Hi, Singer. Thanks for chiming in.
I listened to a few of his songs(including Cree), and I’m a little confused. Nothing I heard was in a soprano range. He sounds like a light tenor singing in a tenor range. His voice is so light that it sounds higher than it is, but it’s not all that high pitch-wise.
Yes, he is singing in modal voice.
Do you have any other examples?
Why do you say confused?….
What was his range?
Now other thing…I’ve been hearing some voices of the type
“haute-contre”, and i get a little bit curious.
What are the characteristics of that voices (passaggi, tone)
are they technique created or are they natural?.
If what youre saying is correct,
then there was some morons
labeling him as with an
“Unique soprano voice”.
Hehe!…. That’s why i havent
search for vocal instructors
round here.
(The tone was pretty tricking heh?)
By the way. Do you know some
vocal courses ala “brett manning”
that really works?. (It’s for avoid screwing me
up karaoking).
He’s not a soprano. He’s a high tenor singing in a pop style (based on the videos that I saw). I could sing the notes he sings in modal voice, but it wouldn’t sound right because I’m a heavier voice than he is. I would probably get tired faster as well for the same reason.
Haute-contre refers to a particular style of tenor singing. I do not claim to be an expert in this style, but it seems to be different from counter-tenors in that counter tenors sing in a typical range for a woman by using mostly falsetto while haute-contre tenors sing mostly in modal voice (using a lot of voix mixe production) and mix in a few falsetto tones for the top. It’s a specific style for French Baroque music.
Both are legitimate styles with legitimate techniques. They just apply to a very particular type of music.
As for courses, I have none to recommend. A good personal teacher is your best bet.